Episode Transcript
Kyle James (00:00.892)
Hey, welcome to the AI Chronicles podcast. I'm your host, Kyle James. And today we're going to be diving in headfirst into how a business to business SEO and content strategy agency called Growth Plays is navigating the transition between traditional SEO to large language models by using AI inside of their own business. And we'll share the exact steps that you can take in order to implement AI for yourself. Now, before I dive into that, listen closely. Are you looking to implement AI inside of your own company?
or maybe just struggling to get your AI to stop hallucinating, speak to GPT Trainer. GPT Trainer literally builds out and manages your AI agent for you, eliminating hallucinations for good. Go to gpt-trainer.com. I promise you it'll be the biggest time saving decision that you've made all year. Trying to set up AI on your own is like trying to build a house from scratch. Sure, you could do it, but the time and frustration is going to take you to get it finished.
isn't worth it. It's a thousand times faster and safer to hire professionals. Scheduled consultation today, once again, that's gpt-trainer.com. Today I have with me J.H. Scherk, who is the founder and CEO of Growth Plays. Hey, J.H., welcome to the show. How are you doing, my friend?
JH Scherck (01:17.176)
Kyle, thank you so much for having me. Doing great.
Kyle James (01:19.644)
Good man. Well, hey, so walk us through a little bit here. So what exactly is Growth Plays and how was it founded?
JH Scherck (01:26.498)
Yeah, so Growth Plans is a B2B content strategy and SEO agency. And I'd say we're now kind of transitioning to how do we show up in LLMs and...
How do we use AI to find efficiencies and sort of like SEL and content production workflows? And we mainly service like the mid market and the enterprise. So some of our customers past and present would be like Calendly, LaunchDarkly, Lattice. So I'd say like typically, I a lot of like dev tools and more technical products, but the way it came to be is I worked in, I was agency side early on in my career and then I went in-house. I was an early on marketing hire at WP Engine. I was the first marketing hire at DocSense.
And I knew that, and you know, just to be frank, like I was kind of operating off of what I call like random acts of marketing where I just like get an idea, go do it, and then maybe it'd work, maybe it didn't. And what I really knew that I needed was a long-term plan that I could communicate to both like my direct manager, C-level executives inside the company, the board, instead of just kind of like flying by the seat of my pants. So I started Growth Plays after I'd say honestly like some more like hard learned lessons around
how to build plans, to build forecasts, how to build systems instead of just like jumping in and executing. And I've been working on this company now for almost a decade, about eight years and change. And really what we do is help companies understand the opportunity that like search and content now LLMs provide and then build long-term plans to execute against those opportunities.
Kyle James (02:54.66)
Yeah, absolutely. talking a little bit about like, you you talk about growth plays and I think it's fantastic what you guys are doing over there. But like, before we dive deeper, like, why did you decide to start using AI in the first place? And like specifically what types of challenges were you trying to solve with it?
JH Scherck (03:10.958)
Yeah, I mean, I'd say we work with some AI companies and, I was working with companies that were utilizing AI way before sort of the days of ChatGPT. Like, CopyAI has been a customer for a while.
Kyle James (03:24.782)
Sure.
JH Scherck (03:26.83)
Um, I mean, even just like natural language processing, I'd say one of the biggest unlocks in my career is I got access to a natural language processing tool that, uh, in like 2017 called market views that taught us how to structure content and what essentially search engines were looking for in content. And we added in other sort of like machine learning type technologies into the offering as well. One for like keyword clustering called keyword insights, which is fantastic. And I knew that there was just a lot of efficiencies to be gained from, uh, generative
of AI and about probably.
six or eight months ago even had a mandate with the team of like, your job is no longer just your job. Your job is to find as many efficiencies as possible with generative AI and start automating aspects of your work. So I knew that there was an opportunity to automate quite a bit inside of the business. And I'd say we take a pretty like the spoke approach. And I'd say really where we're strong is like product marketing and demand gen and analytics and business acumen versus just like ground and pound SEO. And there was a lot that I was sort of hesitant around.
automating but we found actually like ChachiBT can be phenomenal for research and for being almost like a thought partner so everyone on the team has a seat in ChachiBT they all have access to Gemini several members on the team use Claude pretty regularly and then we have a bunch of like I'd say like agentic platforms that we use to automate work but I knew
pretty early on after playing around with early versions of OpenAI's APIs. I was like, there's definitely something here and something that we can utilize.
Kyle James (05:01.872)
Yeah, absolutely. like was, cause you said you've been in this space for almost a decade now. Were you initially, like you talked about back in 2017, you had a little bit of like the natural language processing. Like when did it really kind of take off for both of them for your clients, even for the business when you started saying, Hey, well AI is actually taking us to that next level as far as scalability goes.
JH Scherck (05:27.192)
I remember very quickly, very clearly, I was on a call with someone and they told me that their process was essentially doing what this natural language tech could do via outsource people in the Philippines that were going over like hundreds of pages and bucketing everything into topics. then because this tool would basically tell you like the ideas that would go into your content that other people are talking about by ingesting like the top 30 articles that rank for the term. And they were having humans do it all. I was like, we do that literally with like a click of a button. And I was just like, yeah, this is a major unlock. And the other thing is the tool is extremely effective.
effective. I remember we published something that's pretty competitive. I was on another podcast, content conversations with Ross Hudgens, like a day or two after this came out and it was ranking and driving leads within like 24 hours. So I was like, Oh, there's definitely something here. So, um, been on this train for a little bit just because I've seen the efficiencies and the wins from it for awhile. So I knew I really want to do it best more heavily in generative AI when it became, I'd say not just like commonplace, but I also think the models are getting better at a, at an increasing rate.
And there was a while where I was a little bit hesitant. I'd say like in the days of like GPT, three point, whatever, I was like, yeah, this isn't amazing. and there's still, you know, ton of issues with it. I'd say utilizing AI out of the box isn't always like the easiest thing to do and it requires some new frameworks and some new, skills. But I'd say now it's really at a point where it is a, it can really change how you operate and allow you to do the work that, lot faster and even time better.
Kyle James (06:33.958)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle James (06:54.812)
Yeah, absolutely. I like how you brought up the story with the Philippines, like just how hundreds of pages are going through manually, but then AI could do it and click a button. like, okay, clearly it's the mix sense for us to start looking into the AI piece of it because when you can automate a lot of the manpower hours, that makes a huge difference in not only finances, but even just your process and how fast you can get it done. know what mean? And what types of results have you...
JH Scherck (07:19.896)
for sure.
Kyle James (07:23.964)
You've been in the AI space for quite a bit, time, but what types of results have you been seeing so far, both for maybe internally for your team and then maybe even for some of your clients you're working with and maybe some of the feedback they've given you from working with you?
JH Scherck (07:39.886)
It's that's, you know, it's interesting that you frame it that way. Cause you're like, what are the results that you're seeing from AI as if like AI is this like independent thing that's not blended into the whole business. So it's tough for me to be like, these are the results of AI. Cause I'd say like AI is becoming, just a core part of everyone's workflows. And, know, there's definitely, things that allows us to, like, I, I'd say we work with some very technical products. having like.
Kyle James (07:43.868)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle James (07:51.036)
Hmm.
JH Scherck (08:07.65)
taking all the product marketing information and maybe like a product marketing wiki and some sales enablement material and uploading that into like a custom GPT or even just like the context window itself. And then, you know, having your strategy and asking like, you know, is this the right thing? What am I not thinking about here? What angles am I not seeing? How could this be improved and using it as a thought partner? I think just like make strategy better versus you can really be biased on your own time and kind of fall in love with your own ideas. But when you have an AI kind of pick through them and say like, well, you're kind of missing this angle or it's not really coming for this.
Kyle James (08:33.18)
Hmm.
JH Scherck (08:37.744)
or this is kind of lazy language and is overly vague or just too simplistic. It's really helpful to have, because I take a review of other people's work and my own work, I take almost like an adversarial mindset of like, do I break this document? How do I break the argument? So having an AI kind of do that initial round of review, I think is just super helpful. But it's hard for me to point to like, hey, AI, we implemented AI on this specific thing. And it's like, well, we stopped doing the thing totally manually.
So, and I won't say that AI has been without pain. Adopting any new technology in your business is always difficult. It requires change, it requires testing and iterating. But I'd say we're so far on the train now that it's like, can't imagine doing some of stuff that we do without AI.
Kyle James (09:24.71)
Hmm.
JH Scherck (09:26.318)
Whether that's briefing out and editing content or coming up with synthesizing a lot of information all at once. One thing that I love doing is, again, like I said, we work with some pretty darn technical customers. you take a look at some of the logos on our website, if you don't know anything about DevOps or infrastructure or building open source LLMs, it can be really tough. And I love...
Kyle James (09:40.091)
Mm-hmm.
JH Scherck (09:49.506)
What is it? The Notebook LM, that feature from Google where you can just upload like a ton of really detailed product marketing docs and some information about the company turns the whole thing into like a very digestible and easy to access podcast. So you can get like a conversational understanding of what a company does in a format that's just like super easy to listen to as you walk the dog.
Kyle James (10:04.571)
Hmm.
Kyle James (10:09.692)
Yeah, that's, that's so great. I, feel like coming from, from growthways and, and that you guys are using, you're so far down, like you mentioned sort of far down the train that you're like, Oh, I, I can't imagine like the comparison between not having AI and having AI because it's so, it's so embedded into our DNA. Like if we didn't have it, like I would show you no results because we had, we like, that's it. AI is embedded. And I think that's like, it's very key there because there's so many businesses out there who are like, Hey, I'm wanting to take.
AI and put it into my business, but it's like, where do I start? And like, they want to see the fruits from it before they take the next step. But you're like, Hey, look, I'm at a point where now it's like, have to have AI. And I think that's where a lot of companies are headed towards is as they implement AI and seeing the benefits to it. It's going, Hey guys, this needs to be the core piece of our business. Otherwise, like we're not going to be able to get to that scalability that we're aiming for. So, and I like what you said too about the thought partner, like the different angles.
It's such an eye-opener too when you have your own product, your own services, and you're like, is perfect. But then you have someone else come into play and say, hey, this is actually the best approach. Here's the different angle. Here's some of the data behind it that's saying you should switch up this message a little bit to make it little bit more fine-tuned. And I appreciate you sharing that. And for people who are just stepping in these next couple of years, AI is playing a huge role. And I'm sure you've
Got some plans. What are some those upcoming AI initiatives that you feel like Growth Play is going to be maybe stepping into? And then what do you see it playing maybe kind of the biggest role, if not just for your company, but even other future companies, companies around in your area?
JH Scherck (11:47.182)
Yeah, well, I mean, mean, the biggest change, you because we are at our core, we are an SEO agency and I the biggest change that's happening is obviously traffic from chat. GPT is taking off and in certain spaces more than others, like in the open source software space, we're seeing customers get 20 to 80,000 sessions a month from chat. GPT. And the conversion rates on those sessions can be pretty darn high, like higher than traditional search. So like the value of those visits is typically a little bit higher. It's because they've done a lot of the pre-work that, you know, traditional SEO they wouldn't have, they would
to be reading top of funnel articles and trying to understand concepts. But like, Gen.ai can answer a lot of those questions for you. excuse me. So when they come to the site, they already have a job to be done. They're not trying to like, fact find. They're like, OK, I want to go download this thing or get more information or take this checklist or download the product or sign up for a demo. So for us, I'd say traditionally, like search volume.
Kyle James (12:19.366)
Hmm.
JH Scherck (12:43.382)
And like intent in the search results has been a North Star. So it's like high volume and it's got solution seeking like purchase intent. We want to go after it. But now what we're seeing is like more like directional coverage on in LLMs.
And specifically like chat GPT, I'd say is like the one to show up for now, at least like it definitely has like the most broad consumer reach. If you're in the development space, like Claude, definitely, but Claude doesn't send that much traffic. think he definitely weighs as like it influences developer decisions in a big way. But, in terms of like true business value, that's recognizable and attributable. Chat GPT is the one to focus on right now. But I think that's all going to change because the really big change coming out is Google's AI mode where Google's interface is primarily going to be like a chat based LOM versus
just 10 blue links. So that's really what we've been trying to navigate around or plan for. And I'd say that just changes quite a bit because it's no longer about like, are you showing up number one in the position, but you're being sort of like, there's like an intermediary that's this AI layer. And the information is not just about like, hey, do we have the right messaging on our website? Do we have, you know, a call to action on this page that people are going to land on? more like
Is our messaging and positioning correct in the LLMs? Is the output showing up? Does it reflect what we want it to be? And if not, where's that information getting cited from and how do we change that information? So I'd say primarily with SEO, there was always a focus on like, do we have enough links and are we well represented around the web? But now there's a much more direct impact on like, what is our reputation around the web and how are we framed? And is that information what we want to be represented? And if not, can we get it changed? So I think it's less about just like, hey, publish articles on your website, rank that website now.
Kyle James (14:12.976)
Hmm.
JH Scherck (14:23.344)
It's like, what is our reputation online across the entire internet?
Kyle James (14:26.812)
Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that too, like talking about like the, you know, being listed on like the large language models versus like, and it really sparked like a thought process here, like Google itself. I mean, if the LLMs are really taking more over here is like, you'll, you'll probably even start, start or stop seeing the different links that you can click on. It's just like, Hey, it's not going to be that anymore. It's just going to be here. Like talking to a person, like, I need help finding something online. I was thinking like, I'm talking like a, my parents or something. I can't find this. It's like, Oh yeah, just.
Just a conversation between me and my father or my mother. Like, let me show you, let me walk you through. That's almost like the direction is kind of headed towards is more personal, like chauffeur or like what you mentioned earlier, like the kind of like the assistance, right? That can, you can sit down with, it's going to assist you. know I mean? So, and as we start wrapping up the conversation here, uh, JH, like where, where would you recommend for those who are listening in today to learn a little bit more about you and maybe more about growth plays?
JH Scherck (15:21.75)
Yeah, so I mean, if you want to learn about Growth Plays, if you're a mid-market or enterprise SaaS company, I'd love to chat with you. You can just go to growthplays.com, fill out the form, but I'd say I'm mostly active on X still these days. It's JHT Shirk. So just Google my name and you can probably find it there. Although, who knows, look it up in ChatGPT if you prefer that route.
Yeah, I'd say a little bit on LinkedIn, but Twitter's my home. I've been on there for over a decade, and I know it's kind of crumbling, but I still like it. But you brought up, just before you wrap this up, one interesting point though about this content, and it's a question that I have really for the AI era, and Matthew Prince at Cloudflare has brought it up a bunch recently, and it's like the one thing that's so interesting is that AI is so helpful. It kind of takes away the cruft of the internet, all these ads, low-quality websites you don't want to land on. But what's going to incentivize people to create content if they're not getting traffic anymore?
And I think that's a question that the large language models and Google themselves are going to figure out. And like Google makes a ton of money by sending traffic. Like they've got Google display network, Google ads uses a touch of touch. It basically monitors the whole website. So does Facebook in a sense, like they have their snippet all over the website. They can understand what, what pages people go to and that helps target their ads. So if everyone's just interacting with AI, where does the new information come from? And I think that's a big question that needs to get figured out by really like these incumbent models because what is happening?
is if traffic stops flowing to these websites, the incentive structure of the internet could break. I think we're going to figure this. think smarter minds than I are going to figure this out. But I'd say that is the existential risk that AI poses. It's not that like, we're all going to lose. I don't think we're all going to lose all of our jobs. That's never happened in a technological revolution.
Kyle James (16:58.758)
Yeah.
JH Scherck (17:03.714)
Why will people create content specifically publishers that don't have a product to sell? Why would they create content if they no longer get traffic? What is the incentivization?
Kyle James (17:13.104)
Yeah. I literally, one of the topics that came to mind is, it's kind of silly, but the, like washing machine and dryer, like, I'm like, why, why hadn't someone, and they have created a two in one, you know mean? But like, why would they create a washer and dryer onto one that would cut half their sales? You know I mean? That's kind like the concept here is like, if, if the Google, right. And they had Google Gemini and they're seeing the momentum of large language models. And all of sudden you see on the flip side, like, Hey, people were, are bypassing the click on the links and they're going towards the LLMs.
It's like, we make billions and millions of dollars every year off these clicks. How do we navigate that? that's a, like, James, that's a really big question that I think a lot of people don't quite have the answer to yet.
JH Scherck (17:56.182)
No, I think it's gonna have to come with licensing and incentivization for new content creation. Perhaps, like, you know, OpenAI will fund new services and whatnot, but like, if you are a non-subscription news service, why would you allow OpenAI to access all of your content and to regurgitate it? And I think what this could lead to is not the end of content creation, but the end of the open web.
And so unless incentives get figured out, why would you just allow LLMs to gobble up your information and then not reward you? So while I really like this technology, I do think it poses some risks to the internet as we know it today. And that's just a, you know, that's not really in my day-to-day job, just a philosophical thing that I'm wondering about of like, how do we keep this engine going?
Because if we don't keep putting fuel, AKA money, or even just like traffic that makes people feel good about what they're doing on passion projects, why do they keep doing it if it doesn't feel like anyone ever sees it?
Kyle James (18:51.364)
Yeah, I love your philosophical mindset here. And that's something that I haven't thought about and you just opened up a new brave way, brave wave into my brain here. Like, wow, I didn't think about that. And I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way listening in. Hey, thanks again, Jay. Man, it's a pleasure having you on, just getting your perspective. I think brought a lot of value. And remember for those listening in, if you're looking to implement AI into your business today, don't try and do it yourself. The time of stress that the ad could cause just isn't worth it.
schedule a call with GPT Trainer and let them build out and manage your AI for you. Once again, that's gpt-trainer.com to schedule your consultation. Signing off for now, Jayj, it's pleasure, my friend. Have a wonderful rest of your day and looking forward to seeing you on the next episode of AI Chronicles.
